Transcript for Episode 20: Maude’s New Friend Is a Homo

This is the transcript for the installment of the show in which we discuss the Maude episode “Maude’s New Friend.” If you’d rather listen to Glen and Drew than read what they say, click here. The transcript was provided by Sarah Neal, whose skills we recommend wholeheartedly.

Maude:  You see, you all have problems. To me, Barry Witherspoon is just a sensitive, warm human being. And far as I'm concerned, I would just like to drop the entire conversation.

Walter:  Sure you would. The only reason you're so friendly with him is because Barry is your personal homosexual. 

[audience laughs] 

Walter:  You're prejudiced in reverse!

Maude:  You're not serious, Walter. 

Walter:  Of course! Why didn't I think about it before? Some people show off their new cars or their new house—you show off Barry. 

[audience laughs]

Maude:  Walter, that's hilarious [laughs]. 

[audience laughs]

Walter:  Stop laughing at me, Maude. 

Maude:  [continues laughing]

Walter:  Maude, you know I hate it when you laugh like that.

Maude:  Oh, Honey. I'm sorry. This is the first good laugh I've had since Ford got into the White House and you said, "Thank God. Now we'll get straight talk." 

[audience laughs and applauds]

["And Then There's Maude" by Donny Hathaway plays] 

Drew:  Hello, and welcome to Gayest Episode Ever, the podcast where we look at the LGBT-focused episodes of classic sitcoms, which is to say the very special episodes that also happen to be very gay episodes. I'm Drew Mackie.

Glen:  I'm Glen Lakin.

Drew:  And today we are talking about Maude. 

Glen:  Maude!

Drew:  Maude. Yes! That's the enthusiasm I like.

Glen:  That's the end of it. 

Drew:  Okay. Specifically, the episode "Maude's New Friend," which I guess we're just going to call "Maude's New Friend is a Homo," which is longer than the original title—but that fits our title scheme, I guess.

Glen:  More accurate.

Drew:  Yes, it's more—

Glen:  Well, more specific.

Drew:  More complete. This episode originally aired December 2, 1974, and is not to be confused with another Maude episode called Maude's New Friends. They were very uncreative with the titles on Maude.

Glen:  I was trying to think of something funny to say about Maude being uncreative, but I kind of love her.

Drew:  Oh, I love her too. Glen, what is your relationship with Maude the character and/or show?

Glen:  Well, none Drew—other than we've talked about that Family Guy joke where they play an exaggerated intro to Maude.

Drew:  Yeah. That is actually the thing that brought the show to my awareness, and that is going to make a lot of people hate us because they're like, "How do you not know Maude?" Maude was never in syndication.

Glen:  Never. And I love Bea Arthur. Even as a child, I loved her.

Drew:  I would have watched it. I don't even remember it being on Nick at Nite. It probably was at some point, but I must have missed it because—I missed out on this, and it's great. It's a very important show. That Family Guy gag is also—like, I don't love Family Guy. Sometimes, Family Guy is very, very good with a certain joke, and that joke is a very real thing of having to sit through an extra-long intro on a TV show and you're just like, "Oh, god. They're doing the whole thing. I'll just sit here."

Singer:  Lady Godiva was a freedom rider. She didn't care if the whole world looked. Joan of Arc with the Lord to guide her, she was a sister who really cooked. Madame Curie was a strong woman character, working all day in a science lab, yeah. Clara Barton was a famous nurse, who was rapping with the soldiers and bandages, too. Susan B. Anthony, always out doing stuff, marching around and holding up signs.

Peter:  And then there's Maude.

Singer:  Pocahontas—

Peter:  What the hell?

Singer:  —had it all going on, an Indian guide with lots of Indian pride. Indira Gandhi ran a whole big country. That isn't easy even if you're a guy.

Peter:  And then there's Maude.

Singer:  Babe Zaharias—

Peter:  Aw, come on!

Singer:  —was a really good athlete, good at track and field and professional golf, too.

Peter:  And then there's Maude!

Singer:  Amelia Earhart flew a lot of airplanes, except for that one time when she didn't come back. Cleopatra lived way out in the dessert—

 Peter:  And then there's Maude! Come on!

Singer:  —but still found a way to keep herself looking fine. And then there's Maude.

Peter:  Ahh! Ahh! There we go! That was an ordeal.

Drew:  To this day, I forget which lyrics are part of the actual theme song like, "Indira Gandhi ran a whole big country, which is really hard even if you're a guy."

Glen:  That's my standout too.

Drew:  It's a really good line. We're probably not the only ones that maybe started with that. I have seen the important episodes of Maude, just out of my nerdishness. 

Glen:  What are the important ones? Where she burns her bra then burns down a library with that bra?

Drew:  Well, the most important one is the one where she gets an abortion, which aired—I think—two months before Roe v. Wade, and the deal is she feels that she's too old to be pregnant.

Glen:  I agree.

Drew:  And her daughter says, "Well, abortion is legal—" in New York, at the time. And so she gets one, and it was very controversial. It's very good. It was written by Susan Harris, creator of Golden Girls. 

Glen:  [gasps!] 

Drew:  I know. Reading about that to do this episode made me think of the most recent season of You're the Worst where Lindsay gets an abortion and refers to it as an "abobo," and just thinking of how different the topic gets portrayed now.

Glen:  My favorite abortion episode of TV is BoJack Horseman

Drew:  Wait. Which one's the abortion episode?

Glen:  Oh, my god. I mean, I know you plod through it pretty quickly. It's the one where Diane is doing tweets for that dolphin pop star, and Diane is thinking about getting an abortion herself and accidently tweets it out on the wrong account, I believe, is the story. Hijinks ensue. But the pop star ends up having that awful—awful-slash-amazing—song about abortion. But it's actually a very, very nuanced discussion of the issue, which two seasons in, I believe, people weren't ready to celebrate BoJack as that nuanced show that it is.

Drew:  Right. I was very surprised to find out what show it was after I started watching. If you haven't watched BoJack Horseman yet, try it. It'll make you feel terrible, but it's good. Sometimes funny. Mostly, just make you feel things.

Glen:  Mm-hmm. Feeling is funny.

Drew:  There's also this one episode where it's Maude at her therapist and the entire episode is Bea Arthur talking solo. It's an episode of TV where it's just her monologuing the entire time, and it is awesome.

Glen:  BoJack Horseman also did that in the most recent season.

Drew:  Oh, my gosh. You're right. I didn't even—

Glen:  Yeah. Welcome to our BoJack Horseman podcast. I'm Glen Lakin.

Drew:  Huh. Well, if you ever want to watch—we'll put a link to these two episodes of Maude in the show notes because if you love TV, they are both amazing. And the one where it's just her the entire time, it's just kind of awesome seeing Bea Arthur be a badass and own the stage, on her own, for the entire time.

Glen:  I think that was the most striking thing to me, watching this episode. Yes, seeing Dorothy, kind of—a younger version of her. But seeing Bea Arthur get to act more—

Drew:  She is playing a different character, and yeah, she has a bigger range of emotions in this than she does basically ever as Dorothy.

Glen:  That's it.

Drew:  That's it. In case you don't know, Maude ran for six seasons and 141 episodes between 1972 and 1978. It starred Bea Arthur as the title character, Maude Findlay, who originated on All in the Family, where she was introduced as Edith's cousin and also as a liberal foil to Archie Bunker. Maude is progressive and outspoken and flawed as we see in this episode, and it's a very good take down of liberal foibles. 

Glen:  It holds up today.

Drew:  Yeah. I maybe don't interact with people who are Archie Bunkers so often nowadays. I interact with a lot of people who are Maudes. "Limousine liberal" is the—do we still use that expression anymore?

Glen:  I didn't even understand what word you said.

Drew:  Limousine liberal?

Glen:  Oh, yes. 

Drew:  Yeah.

Glen:  I thought you said Lebanese Liberal.

Drew:  She's not Lebanese, but isn't Danny Thomas one? She is to some degree based on Norman Lear's wife, Frances. Also, Till Death Do Us Part—the British sitcom on which All in the Family is based—has a Cousin-Maude character named Cousin Maude.

Glen:  Why is that surprising to you? 

Drew:  Because she is only a guest character, I think, in one episode, and it's interesting that that is one of the things that carried over because a lot of the incidental characters—the plots are not always the same. They didn't carry everything over from the British show. 

Glen:  Right. But British shows have, like, three episodes, so a character who appears in one episode is 33.3 percent of the show.

Drew:  Major recurring character. On the show she is married to Walter, who is played by Bill Macy—not to be confused with William H. Macy. Future Swamp Thing star Adrienne Barbeau plays her daughter, Carol.

Glen:  Oh, my god. I spent at least two thirds of the episode being like, "She's so gorgeous."

Drew:  And she's going to be in the new Swamp Thing as well.

Glen:  Oh, good.

Drew:  Also the voice of Catwoman from the Batman: Animated Series. Conrad Bain and Rue McClanahan are the Republicans next door. Rue McClanahan does not appear in this episode, but Conrad Bain does.

Glen:  Yes. And of course, I screamed Phillip Drummond when I saw him, and then I had to do that thing where I immediately Googled "young Conrad Bain," and my computer exploded because it just doesn't exist.

Drew:  Oh. Weird. I would like to see what he looked like as a young man. Huh. 

Glen:  But he's like Angela Lansbury. He came out like a withered bean. 

Drew:  Do you think Phillip Drummond was also a Republican? He was very wealthy.

Glen:  I just had problems that he looked ancient and was playing a character eight years his junior. There was an episode where he celebrated his 50th birthday.

Drew:  On Diff'rent Strokes? 

Glen:  Yes.

Drew:  Oh, my god. See? You have a better command of Diff'rent Strokes than I do. You're constantly making me think, "What the hell? That's really weird."

Glen:  Yeah. I remember my dad was turning 50, and I was like, "That can't be." 

Drew:  That is not what 50 looks like. Yeah. The rest of the cast is a series of housekeepers, the first of which is Florida who got spun off into her own show, which was Good Times. Currently, in this episode, we’ve got Mrs. Naugatuck, who is a messy drunk. She seems like an Ab Fab character, kind of.

Glen:  Yeah. I felt like she spun out of a different show herself. I don't know where she came from. I loved her, but I wondered if everyone else in the room just sort of accepted that she was criminally insane.

Drew:  [laughs] Are you talking about the actors or the characters?

Glen:  Both. I believe she showed up on set in character. 

Drew:  I can't imagine—

Glen:  "I fucked Abraham Lincoln."

Drew:  I can't imagine her in a different mode, but the actress' name is Hermione Baddeley. She also played the maid in Mary Poppins. So it's still a maid, but less of a mess at the very least. But she's going to town with this character. I love how big she is. A big draw for me. I couldn't find Nielsen Ratings for this episode, though Maude was the ninth most watched TV show in 1974 behind The Waltons and ahead of Hawaii Five-0. Can you guess number one?

Glen:  All in the Family?

Drew:  Yes.

Glen:  What do I win?

Drew:  Another apple slice? 

Glen:  Ugh.

Drew:  Directed by Hal Cooper, which is also the name of Betty's dad on Riverdale, which made googling him slightly difficult. He directed 126 of the 141 episodes of Maude, also directed episodes of That Girl, The Brady Bunch, Gimme a Break!, Dear John, and Empty Nest. It was written by Rod Parker whose credits also include Gimme a Break!, Dear John, and Empty Nest, but also Love, Sidney. Are you aware of this show?

Glen:  Nope.

Drew:  Aired [for] two seasons on NBC, from 1981 to 1983. Initially it was a TV movie starring Tony Randall as Sidney, who is a novelist and a gay man.

Glen:  Oh!

Drew:  And then when it became a TV show, there was a lot of protest about having a positive portrayal of a homosexual on TV every week, so they downplayed his gayness for most of the show. To the point that—

Glen:  He was asexual.

Drew:  Yes, and some people were not even aware that that was—they thought he was just a bachelor. So basically, he got inned—which is a verb we don't get to use very often.

Glen:  I too am a bachelor [laughs].

Drew:  We're both bachelors.

Glen:  Confirmed.

Drew:  Yeah.

Glen:  I don't know why I said that like a robot.

Drew:  Because you're a robot.

Glen:  Okay. Only one reveal per show.

Drew:  Okay. Also starred Swoosie Kurtz.

Glen:  No.

Drew:  Yeah. Youngish Swoosie Kurtz. Look up pictures of "young Swoosie Kurtz" when you get a chance.

Glen:  You think I haven't?

Drew:  Yes. I don't think you have.

Glen:  Well, you are wrong.

Drew:  She's a lady dreamboat, that one. There's also another gay episode of Maude. It is called "The Gay Bar" in Season Six, in which it is summarized only as, "Arthur is not happy about a gay bar in town." That's it. Just wonder about that. 

Glen:  No. He's a real wet blanket. 

Drew:  He really is. He's better when Rue McClanahan is there. She's kind of in Rose Nylund mode in this character. She's just kind of out of it and ditzy, but she's great—which brings us to the opening scene.

Glen:  The two characters Walter and Maude are acting in front of an imaginary mirror.

Drew:  It's really weird. Have you ever seen that on another show in that way?

Glen:  I was trying to think of it, and nothing came to mind. I'm sure I have, but I'm trying to imagine being in the audience as Walter is trying to floss his teeth into a mirror that's not there.

Drew:  And she's putting on mascara. Basically, if you're on the set, where the audience would be, that invisible wall is where the mirror is. So Bea Arthur is just looking into a nothing putting on makeup, and it's the entire scene so it's really glaring. Maybe it happened in flashes in other shows, but they force you to recognize the artificiality of this. It is weird. 

Glen:  I mean, yeah. There's not much gay going on in this scene. It's just a married couple bickering. The thrust of their argument is that this evening Maude has invited over some friends, and her new friend—who to her is a famous author—Barry, who Walter doesn't like because he finds him to be a pretentious intellectual. 

Walter:  I'd rather watch a bunch of dogs sitting and heeling than listen to Barry.

Maude:  Good idea, Walter. Maybe you'll learn how to roll over and play dead. 

[audience laughs] 

Maude:  I tell you, I'd get a lot more sleep that way. 

[audience laughs] 

Walter:  You promised me I would never have to go through another evening with that egotistical know-it-all.

Maude:  Know-it-all? Walter, the man has just written a best-selling novel.

Walter:  It's only a best seller in Tuckahoe, and that's because you personally nagged half the town into buying his lousy book.

Maude:  Walter, you are a small man—a very small man. You are an American bonsai. 

[audience laughs] 

Drew:  Maude's response is, "That's just Barry. He does that to everybody."

Glen:  I mean, people probably say the same about me. 

Drew:  There's a level of pointed condescension with Barry. We'll talk about Barry's flaws in the very near future and why I actually think they're kind of awesome. But, yeah. He's a real fuckwad. I don't think I'd be friends with you—and certainly would not host a show with you—if you treated me like that. Wait. Do I treat you like that?

Glen:  Yes.

Drew:  Okay.

Glen:  But did you have anything to add about this scene? I'm just excited to get to it because if my level of excitement screaming Maude in the beginning didn't hint to the juiciness of this episode—

Drew:  There's a lot going on. The only other thing I have about this opening scene is that I envy Maude's awesome periwinkle phone—her bedside phone. Colored phones are something that we don't really have anymore, and I miss that. So despite Walter's protests, Barry is coming over, and he goes downstairs. Then we see Arthur Harmon, Republican next-door neighbor; Carol, who is their daughter; and Mrs. Naugatuck, who is their drunk maid.

Glen:  Drunk, British maid.

Drew:  Mm-hmm. Per this episode, Mrs. Naugatuck has two personality characteristics: drunk and liar—because she's constantly alleging that she knows famous people of bygone eras.

Glen:  Yeah. I was thinking maybe she's some sort of immortal witch.

Drew:  I mean, I like that fan-fiction version of it. I think she gets married, and then she leaves the show as well. I think there's a different maid for the last few seasons, and I think they're poorer for having lost her. 

Glen:  Before the scene really gets going, the maid has a pretty good—and surprisingly racy, to me—joke at Arthur's expense.   

Arthur:  Oh. This is Mr. Witherspoon's novel [laughs]. I see you're reading it too, Carol. I want to see if I can get him to sign my copy. 

Mrs. Naugatuck:  I collect autographs, too. My prize is Sigmund Freud.

Arthur:  You really met Freud? 

Mrs. Naugatuck:  Met him? He was my analyst. 

[audience laughs] 

Carol:  Sigmund Freud analyzed you? 

Mrs. Naugatuck:  Well, he wanted to. But I live by one rule in life: Never trust a doctor who has a couch in his office. 

[audience laughs] 

Drew:  And then Arthur and Walter start talking, and Arthur's like—

Arthur:  For heaven's sake. Walter, what could be wrong with spending an evening with a famous author like Barry Witherspoon? You know, last week he had his picture in the Women's Wear Daily.

Walter:  What kind of dress was he modeling? 

[audience laughs]

Drew:  Maude immediately says that is prejudice and seizes on the information. 

Glen:  She activates.

Drew:  Yes, she does. She thinks this is a homophobic joke. Do you think this is a homophobic joke?

Glen:  Yes. The thing is, it's a homophobic joke only because—as we're about to find out—Barry is gay.

Drew:  He's a gay fella. 

Glen:  Were it just a joke at the expense of a pretentious man who perhaps had effeminate qualities—as they might describe in the era, a sissy or a dandy—it would still be kind of a crass joke. Not sensitive by today's standards, but not outwardly cruel. 

Drew:  Right. I guess we're supposed to think about whether Maude's knee-flex—knee-flex!—reflex reaction is accurate or not, whether she is properly saying, "Yes, that is homophobic," or where she's so ready to call someone out for being homophobic that she's not correctly interpreting the situation. But it goes on from there.

Glen:  I think it's an interesting choice. In that pretty substantial opening scene, it was never brought up that Barry's gay.

Drew:  No.

Glen:  That was never a part of their conversation. She didn't bring [it] up then. That is why Walter might not like Barry, which I think is pretty intentional and smart on the writers' part.

Drew:  But also maybe realistic, because if you think that Walter is homophobic then he might be reluctant to bring that up. And if we're focusing on Maude's hang-ups, she might be reluctant to even say it—and actually, she is. When she's yelling at Walter, she whispers "homosexual."

Maude:  Walter, that was a prejudiced remark. 

Walter:  Oh, what are you talking about?

Maude:  Oh, come on. Walter, didn't you hear yourself? The reason you dislike Barry is because subconsciously you resent the fact that he's a homosexual. 

[audience laughs] 

Drew:  She's yelling, and then her voice drops down because she feels that saying "homosexual" is like saying a dirty word.

Glen:  Yeah. I would love to know if that were a choice on Bea Arthur's part, if it was in the script, or if it was the director because that moment, that choice to whisper "homosexual" gets at the heart of what the entire episode is about—people who claim to be liberal, while ignoring their own prejudices versus people who are open with their minor prejudices. And—I don't know. It gets us to the argument that we have in politics continually and will have up until the next election: Is it better to be authentic, or is it better to be on message?

Drew:  I guess I'm going to say authentic, but I think this episode shows that it's more layered than a quick answer could possibly solve.

Glen:  But we're going to solve it here.

Drew:  We are. Also, it's interesting that this is what the episode becomes because when we did the episode of the John Goodman Show in the first season of this podcast, I talked about how there's an episode about thinking you're liberal and having to face the fact that you might have prejudices and saying that I'd never seen that before quite in that way. This is very much along those lines and maybe even handled better because it takes it a little bit further than that episode.

Glen:  Yeah. This makes us live in it. I remember texting you as I was watching, "This is getting wild." And a predinner party of just friends over for drinks with a semi-famous author may not sound like an intense situation, but I think given the era of the show and the context with which we're watching it there was a lot there.

Drew:  Also, it's not a dinner party. It's just drinks. Did people actually do that back then? Be like, "Come over for drinks. We're all going to get dressed up. All the men will be wearing blazers, and the women will be wearing dresses not for dinner."

Glen:  I would love that. If you just started having people over and I could just throw on a blazer that I never wear and just waltz in and have half a drink then go back—

Drew:  We could have a 20-minute cocktail party every day. 

Glen:  Yeah. 

Drew:  Walter says that he's not homophobic, and then Mrs. Naugatuck comes in with a big delivery of—

Walter:  I don't resent anyone being a homosexual. 

Mrs. Naugatuck:  Neither do I! I adore gay people. 

[audience and applauds] 

Mrs. Naugatuck:  They're so much more fun than bullfighters. 

[audience laughs]

Drew:  I guess it's just her delivery. She is innately hilarious, so it must be that. But apart from her delivery, there's nothing funny about saying you like gay people [laughs], but the audience thinks it's funny.

Glen:  It's more the follow-up that got me.

Drew:  There's a lot of weird stuff in this episode. I couldn't tell if this was a reference to something or just a non sequitur, but she says that gay people are so much more fun than bullfighters.

Glen:  What does that mean?

Drew:  I chose to think that she's just batty, and the way Maude and Arthur and Walter react is just they just deadpan stare at her, like, "What the fuck?" But the audience doesn't really laugh at that. I thought that was funnier. 

Glen:  She is definitely going to just turn the gas on on the stove and walk out, and that's just what's going to happen. And if you had a housekeeper like that, I'd pull you aside and say, "Drew, she's going to murder you."

Drew:  This is why I have zero housekeepers and why my house is always a little dirty.

Glen:  This is a podcast. People don't need to know that.

Drew:  No, they do. So Arthur learns that Barry is gay, and he—

Glen:  Does the hand gesture that we have become accustomed to.

Drew:  Oh. I didn't even notice that—the so-so?

Glen:  The Tinkerbell hand gesture.

Drew:  Oh, Tinkerbell. Okay. I must have been taking notes when he did that because I did not notice that. He seems put off for a moment, and Maude's reaction is "Oh, it's nothing."

Arthur:  You mean this Witherspoon is a—

Maude:  Yes, but that has nothing to do with anything. Once you get to know him, you'll love him. 

[audience laughs]

Arthur:  Can't we just be friends?

[audience laughs and applauds]

Glen:  Maude's line of "There's nothing wrong with him. Once you meet him you'll love him," as if getting to know someone is the only solution to cover up or make up for the fact that he's a homosexual.

Drew:  Oh. I didn't even think about that, but you're right. Like, "Once you know him you can overlook this aspect to him."

Glen:  Yeah. And again, the point of the show is how many times we watch old episodes of TV where the baseline for homosexuals is we have to prove that we're not monsters. And I'm exaggerating, but that is sort of what it is. Like, we have to prove that we're normal—quote/unquote—or that we're not going to hit on everyone, even though we might.

Drew:  Depends on how much we drink. Maude accuses Walter of being a covert conservative. Arthur is the actual Republican. Walter's not. He's, I think, fairly liberal if not as liberal as Maude. And then Mrs. Naugatuck comes in again and says—

Mrs. Naugatuck:  What's all the fuss about? Just because a man's homosexual? We think quite highly of them in England. Our government's full of them. 

[audience laughs] 

Mrs. Naugatuck:  The only one we're positive isn't a queen is the Queen.

[audience laughs and applauds]

Drew:  Which I don't think was really true—but that the government is full of them and the only one we're sure is not a queen is the Queen.

Glen:  I want her on Drag Race immediately.

Drew:  I want her as a Snatch Game character that no one understands but is delivered perfectly. So I actually tried to look this one up, like, was she referring to something about English politics being full of homosexuals? That series A Very English Scandal—it was a BBC thing with Hugh—who's the famous Hugh? He was the—

Glen:  The prostitutes?

Drew:  Yeah [laughter]. Hugh Prostitutes. What the fuck is his name? Floppy hair.

Glen:  Married Elizabeth Hurley.

Drew:  Yeah. Okay. 

Glen:  Hugh—

Drew:  Not Laurie. Okay. So you obviously know who we're talking about and you're probably yelling at us, but we're having a temporary block. It was a BBC series where he plays a closeted politician who had an affair and British confection Ben Whishaw plays his once-upon-a-time lover. 

Glen:  [gasps!] I love Ben Whishaw.

Drew:  Real scandal. But I don't think it broke until the mid '70s, so she can't be referring to that. But that was a fun hole to jump down.

Glen:  Well, unless she knew. Maids know a lot.

Drew:  Yeah. It's true. She had inside information.

Glen:  I mean, if you think about Mr. Belvedere and how much he knew about everyone— 

Drew:  That's true. He saw everything.

Glen:  Alfred Pennyworth was a spy.

Drew:  The podcast Bad Gays, by the way—which you should listen to if you're a gay person and you like history—there's this rich history of homosexuals and espionage. We're natural spies because we're good at deception and reading clues. Listen to that podcast. So Maude also thinks Mrs. Naugatuck is homophobic. Carol says she dated a guy who was gay.

Maude:  I'm beginning to realize I am the only person here who is not prejudiced.

Carol:  Mother, you can't say that about me. I dated a guy that was gay. 

Arthur:  Really? Why? 

[audience laughs]

Carol:  He was a marvelous dancer, and he did my hair for half price.

[audience laughs]

Drew:  Ha, ha, ha. Maude's like, "You're all homophobic."

Glen:  I mean, yeah. Her daughter does not get a lot to do in this episode, but she delivers everything perfectly and she's gorgeous. And even if by today's standards that joke is a little meh-eh, I forgave her, and I and was like, "You just sit there on that couch."

Drew:  I still really love disappointing heterosexuals with what a bad dancer I am. Also, I don't think I've ever said on this podcast [that] my parents were briefly an acquaintance of Adrienne Barbeau. I mentioned this in the context of my podcasting to my parents, and they forbade me from ever mentioning that again.

Glen:  Well, they're not going to listen to this.

Drew:  They're not going to fucking listen to this [laughs]. So Maude is angry. She says they're putting gay people in a different category, which they are—and that is a good thing and a bad thing. Sometimes we should be in a different category, but it shouldn't be a less-than, just-over-there thing. I don't know how else to explain that, but she's not wrong. So they all have their weird hang-ups and—okay. This one was really—Arthur is like, "I guess it follows that he's gay because he's a writer."

Arthur:  It doesn't make any difference to me what a person is, although I'm not surprised about this Witherspoon. After all, he's a writer.

Maude:  Oh. And all authors are homosexual, right, Arthur? I suppose Eugene O'Neill was gay. 

Arthur:  Oh, that's different. He was Irish.

[audience laughs]

Maude:  What has being Irish got to do with it? 

Arthur:  Are you trying to tell me that the Notre Dame football team isn't straight?

[audience laughs]

Maude:  I don't believe this.

Mrs. Naugatuck:  Oh, that's because the Notre Dame football team is Polish.

[audience laughs]

Drew:  I tried to google that. Came up with nothing except—yeah. Whatever.

Glen:  And then Walter comes in with an excellent point.

[audience laughs]

Maude:  You see you all have problems. To me, Barry Witherspoon is just a sensitive, warm human being, and as far as I'm concerned, I would just like to drop the entire conversation.

Walter:  Sure you would. The only reason you're so friendly with him is because Barry is your personal homosexual. 

[audience laughs] 

Walter:  You're prejudiced in reverse!

Maude:  You're not serious, Walter. 

Walter:  Of course! Why didn't I think about it before? Some people show off their new cars or their new house—you show off Barry. 

[audience laughs]

Glen:  Which I was happy that he then expanded upon. I was like, "What does he mean by that?" 

Walter:  He's your proof that you're the big liberal, completely unbiased.

Maude:  Come on. Walter, are you actually inferring that I'm that shallow? 

Walter:  No. You're inferring. I'm implying. 

[audience laughs]

Maude:  That's what is so petty about you, Walter. You learn one dumb thing, and then you laud it over everyone. 

[audience laughs]

Glen:  He describes it as Maude befriending him and using that friendship as a catchall for how liberal she is and how understanding and how cosmopolitan and "Look at me, I couldn't possibly be bigoted, because I have a homosexual friend." 

Drew:  Right. She's wearing their friendship like a button on the front of her coat, and I'm kind of surprised that her husband was—we're not given much to tell us that Walter's perceptive, [but] that's actually very perceptive of him. And that is something that I don't think I've heard articulated on a more recent sitcom so well. And that's also something that people at least really used to do back in the day. I don't know if they can really do that anymore. Not in this town because we're just everywhere.

Glen:  Right. I'm sure they do. Politicians still do.

Drew:  But people in this town do do that with other minorities. 

Glen:  Oh, yes. Walter also had another good point that hating Barry is the least prejudiced thing he could do—and by that he meant that had he pretended to like Barry just because Barry was gay and Walter was afraid of offending him, that would be prejudiced. Which, yes.

Drew:  It is, and Maude's guilty of that because Maude is aware that Barry says insulting things to people and she's willing to excuse it for no apparent reason other than the fact that maybe he's kind of famous. But I think Walter's right. She's doing it because he's gay. And he's, like, the opposite of an angel gay, where—

Glen:  A devil gay.

Drew:  He's a devil gay. He's getting a pass on everything just because he's gay, which I don't think is something we can get away with now unfortunately.

Glen:  I'm going to try.

Drew:  [laughs] And then Barry shows up.

Glen:  He is not hot.

Drew:  No. And I think that's great. 

Glen:  I thought it was terrible. I wanted to look at a 1970s homosexual.

Drew:  Well, there's various pornographies you can look at for that. At this point, I think it's good that anyone's putting—I don't know how to—I forgot how to— 

Glen:  Ugly-homosexual representation.

Drew:  I think ugly-homosexual representation is important. He's just a middle aged, schlubby guy. There's nothing else. He's not ugly, he's just—

Glen:  He's not schlubby. He's just bound to have a heart attack soon, like, that sort of white man.

Drew:  He would go on to star on Soap, where he plays Katherine Helmond's husband.

Glen:  Good for him.

Drew:  Robert Mandan. He's also the senator in Best Little Whorehouse in Texas. So he walks in. Maude has just shushed a big fight—there's a big fight among everyone there before he walks in—says, "Welcome to the party, Barry." Cut to commercial.

Glen:  And actually, a very awkward cut to commercial because picture this: Barry's entering the house; Maude is behind him; whenever Barry turns to look at her, she's smiling like, "Oh, welcome to my house"; and then whenever he's looking at the other guests, she doing this weird overacting and pointing, like, "You better be quiet and not tell him how horrible we are to each other." She does it more than once because it's a fade to commercial. A slow fade. 

Drew:  You know what else is an awkward cut to commercial?

Glen:  This. We're going to cut to commercial? Oh, god. It's happening. 

["And Then There's Maude" by Donny Hathaway plays] 

[Gayest Episode Ever promotes tarot reading at A Love Bizarre]

["And Then There's Maude" by Donny Hathaway plays] 

Drew:  Hi. we're back from a commercial now. So. The gay has entered the party. Some time has passed since he's got there. Everyone is enjoying drinks. I think it's at this point that everyone becomes kind of insane, and there's a lot of interactions where I'm like, "I don't understand why people are doing this. This is very odd." Not a complaint. I think this episode is great. But people act real zany in this part.

Glen:  Are you talking about the wide-mouthed frog story? 

Drew:  I'm trying to think if anything else comes up before that—not really. No. Barry's like, "Maude, tell the wide-mouthed frog story." She's like, "Oh, I couldn't." He's like, "No, you have to." 

Glen:  I am not going through this story because it's actually kind of long and weird, and it ends with nothing.

Drew:  And requires Bea Arthur to make funny faces and weird voices, and I felt uncomfortable watching it, and the payoff is really nothing. It's not a funny joke. It's a bad joke.

Glen:  It's a bad joke. There's no payoff. I'm trying to think of what layered meaning it could have linking to gays. 

Maude:  See, there was this wide-mouthed frog, see, and it was going to have a new baby, and it didn't know what to feed it. Aw, come on, Barry.

[characters protest her hesitating while telling her super lame not-joke]

Maude:  Alright. So this wide-mouthed frog went up to a giraffe, and it said, "What do you feed your baby?" 

[audience laughs] 

Maude:  The giraffe said, "I feed my baby grass." "Thank you!" And then this wide-mouthed frog went up to a monkey and it said, "What do you feed your baby?" And the monkey said, "Bananas."

Arthur:  [laughs obnoxiously]

Maude:  Now wait, Arthur. There's more. 

[audience laughs] 

Maude:  He said, "Thank you," and then the wide-mouthed frog went up to a lion and it said, "What do you feed your baby?" And the lion said, "Wide-mouthed frogs." "Ooh really?" 

[audience laughs and applauds] 

Glen:  I guess if you want to reach, which I often do, the whole point of the story is that this frog is sort of seeking the advice of acquaintances in the animal kingdom and trusting their judgement, I guess. And it ends with him—her—the frog is a mother—asking the advice from a lion, who's clearly going to eat her. And I guess it's sort of similar to Maude inviting Barry into her house and it not ending well. 

Drew:  She's the frog and he's the lion?

Glen:  No, Barry's the frog. Maude is the lion. 

Drew:  You lost me. The only thing—because we'll have cut it in by this point. The thing you have to know is that the entire time she's making a wide mouth because she's playing the frog, and then when she finds out the lion eats wide-mouthed frogs her mouth goes very narrow. She's like, "Oh, shit." Not something that translates well to audio form, but also just a terrible joke.

Glen:  I hated it. She does a great job performing it.

Drew:  Yeah. She does as well as she can do with that clunker. But then it's followed up with, "Oh. We heard that at a luncheon."

Maude:  We heard this last Sunday at a luncheon for Barry.

Barry:  Oh, boy. That lunch. I don't know how I'd get through those luncheons without Maude.

Maude:  Now this was something. The chairperson opened the meeting by singing, "When the Moon Comes Over the Mountain." She was five-feet-two and had a 63-inch chest, and she could really project. 

Barry:  She had to—to get the moon over those mountains.

[audience laughs]

Drew:  And I was like, "What the fuck is going on?" Barry was at a—

Glen:  I know. It was like, a boob joke. 

Drew:  Yeah. So—

Glen:  It's off the rails.

Drew:  So she's very short and has giant boobs, and he makes a crack about her boobs. Walter has been sitting there the entire time not speaking—like, just looking forward and not reacting to anything, which is a very strange way to act at a party—

Glen:  That's in your house.

Drew:  Yes. You should excuse yourself. I don't know why he's doing that. But then, again, for no reason, he's prompted to say that Barry's joke was not funny—"I heard that in third grade." And Barry's like, "Oh, you got that far?" They get into it about Walter not being as educated as Barry.

Glen:  So, yeah. There's a bunch of crass jokes, digs at each other, and then—I forget who prompts it. Oh! Arthur wants a photo of Barry because Arthur has a wall of celebrities.

Drew:  Which is weird because the last time we got an opinion on him, he was like, "Oh. I don't know if I like this Barry guy because he's gay," but now he wants a photo. It's like—okay. Whatever. 

Glen:  Yeah. I actually do think that especially republicans, when they're not attacking Hollywood, actually give a lot of passes to celebrities. Anyway.

Drew:  They're starfuckers as much as anyone else is. Yeah. 

Glen:  Yeah. So there's the maid. I'm never going to try and say her name.

Drew:  Naugachuck.

Glen:  Naugachuck.

Drew:  No. Naugatuck. Naugatuck.

Glen:  So Mrs. Naugatuck—Ms. Naugatuck. She sort of—because she said she's an expert in photography because she fucked Alexander Graham Bell.

Arthur:  And you just look through that little opening there.

Mrs. Naugatuck:  Please! You're talking to the person who learned the art of photography from Alexander Graham Bell himself.

[audience laughs]

Carol:  Mrs. Naugatuck, he invented the telephone.

Mrs. Naugatuck:  Of course, so he could call me up and tell me how to use the camera.

[audience laughs and applauds]

Glen:  So she's just arranging everyone for the photo, which ends in Walter and Barry standing next to each other and Walter being hesitant to stand close to Barry and Barry has a funny enough line like, "Don't worry. I'm not going to make a pass at you."

Mrs. Naugatuck:  Now wait a minute. Here. Would you ladies just move in a little bit, please? And the gentlemens, would you squeeze in just a little bit more?

Barry:  Here. Come on Walter.

Walter:  How's this? 

[audience laughs]

Mrs. Naugatuck:  Lovely!

Barry:  Don't worry, Walter. I never make passes at men with moustaches. 

[audience laughs]

Glen:  Are you offended, Drew?

Drew:  I am. I will say I find that Walter's moustache is pretty decent. He has a pretty decent moustache.

Glen:  Also, apparently it's a Dorothy Parker joke, so it's another "We're intellectuals, and you're not, Walter."

Drew:  So this is a great example of why Barry and Maude are bad people because after he makes that line, he calls out that he's riffing on Dorothy Parker, and Maude's like, "I got that too. It was very funny." It's like shut—ugh. When you announce the reference that you just made, that undercuts the cleverness of your reference. So the Dorothy Parker line is "Men seldom make passes at girls who wear glasses." Also told on Will & Grace at one point as, "Men don't make passes at guys with fat asses." 

Glen:  Now that one I knew.

Drew:  Which is not true, actually. But Walter is insulted and leaves. And it's a weird situation where, I guess, they kind of leave it up to you to interpret what's going on. You could say that Walter is weird about being around a gay person who just made a sexuality joke around him, but he also was insulted as well. So he leaves, and Maude chases him into the kitchen, which I will describe as pumpkin-mahogany-fantasia. It's the most '70s thing in the world, and I love it. It looks like—

Glen:  I just got excited that he was making night coffee and, as you know, coffee at night always makes me feel naughty. 

Drew:  [laughs] I think you should have your own solo podcast called Night Coffee where it's just your musings.

Glen:  Oh, my god. No one would listen to it. Actually, at this point, I'm on Team Walter, and I think the show does leave in a bit of grey area, but certainly isn't pushing that Walter's a secret homophobe. I think there's plenty of evidence that he is uncomfortable because his intellect is being belittled. That being said, he has a real zinger of a joke in the kitchen. Maude follows Walter to the kitchen, asks him to come back, and Walter says—

Maude:  Walter, you cannot stay here in the kitchen! What'll I tell Barry?

Walter:  Tell him I'm whipping up a batch of fudge.

[audience laughs]

Maude:  Not funny Walter! That is not funny!

Glen:  That's a fudge-packing joke. How is it not? 

Drew:  I mean, I don't understand why else he's making it.

Glen:  Who else makes fudge at night at a dinner party—or at a drinks party before dinner? 

Drew:  It is weird. I guess the alternate read is he's doing something that's time consuming and that's why he's not going to be out, but there's no reason—

Glen:  Does fudge take a long time to make?

Drew:  Not really, it's pretty easy to make.

Glen:  It's probably like the Rice Krispy treats of the day.

Drew:  Slightly harder than Rice Krispy treats. I can make fudge for you tonight—but I won't.

Glen:  Why would you not? 

Drew:  Because I don't like fudge.

Glen:  Oh. I want it. Walter relents, comes back into the living room to apologize to Barry. Barry answers that apology with a grammar joke.

Walter:  Barry, I'm sorry I behaved so bad.

Barry:  Badly, Walter. 

[audience laughs]

Barry:  Should have learned that even in the school of hard knocks.

Walter:  [exclaims]

Drew:  I need to take a break from this entire thing and say what he did is completely inappropriate, and if you are listening to this podcast and you have ever publicly corrected someone's grammar and it wasn't in the context of you are a grammar teacher teaching a class and this is one of your students, you are a terrible person, and you should never ever, ever, ever do that. Even if someone's learning English and you're trying to help them, you should tell them privately that "It's actually like this." People only publicly correct someone's grammar to be a horrible bully. So if you've ever done that, don't do that. Also, he's technically right in this one instance. A lot of times people correct the whole adjective/adverb thing, but in English there's a lot of times when an adjective doubles as an adverb—like "dream big," swing high," go slow." You don't have to say, "Go slowly." Slow works just fine.

Glen:  Listeners, Drew is sweating. His skin is red. There's steam coming out of his ears.

Drew:  One of the reasons I don't work in offices anymore is that I—yeah. 

Glen:  Well, the law. Police dragged you out.

Drew:  No. I just witnessed people doing this, and it's a horrible thing to do. Also, one time I told someone "Drive safe," and they're like, "Oh, safely." And then I instantly never wanted someone to die in a burning ball of fire more. They are still alive.

Glen:  I was going to say—well, that explains the asteroid crash. This has been growth in my 30s, and I think it's life advice that everyone could use: If you have an urge to correct someone, make sure you're doing it for them and not to make yourself feel better or right. If you're doing it for some sort of moral victory, button it up.

Drew:  Also, it will probably come back to bite you in the ass. I don't believe in karma, but it does have a funny way of working out where you will probably screw up in the correction and make yourself look even stupider. 

Glen:  For me, it's more—the only actual end result of that is making someone feel bad, and what's the fucking point of that? 

Drew:  Okay. I had a guy come up to my desk once and tell me that I had a grammatical error in a headline, and he was wrong, first of all. It was a colloquialism that I thought was okay. And the way he told it to me is that he benefited from a Catholic education—

Glen:  Okay. Well— 

Drew:  —and he felt it was his duty in life to share the benefits of what he learned when he was a young lad and help people have better grammar. Oh, my god. 

Glen:  How quickly were the police called?

Drew:  I wanted to hit him with a stapler. Oh, fuck! Okay. Anyway. 

Glen:  So, Maude. 

Drew:  Yeah. Barry's a jerk for other reasons. 

Glen:  This results in Walter wanting to fight Barry physically—fisticuffs—and Arthur has to point out that this might be a bad move for Walter because Barry is a larger man and would probably knock Walter to his ass, and how would that look for his reputation if Walter got knocked out by a sissy?

Drew:  Mm-hmm. I guess that has been a theme of this season of the show is gay men can handle themselves in a fight. 

Glen:  Well, we have a lot of repressed rage.

Drew:  Oh, yeah. That's true.

Glen:  And we work out a lot.

Drew:  That's because we don't love ourselves.

Glen:  That's body dysmorphia.

Drew:  The strength is just incidental to that. At this point, Maude sends everyone out except for Walter and Barry, and she's like, "We're going to settle this." Walter tells Barry "I'm going to throw you out of my house—not because you're gay, but because I don't like you," and Barry weirdly responds, "I understand." And for a moment I think I kind of get him, where he seems like he was aware of what a jerk he is—and he probably is to a degree. But then he says that the reason Walter is jealous, the reason Walter is angry, is that he is jealous of Barry because he's been spending so much time with his wife. 

Glen:  And he connects with her on an intellectual level that Walter cannot. 

Drew:  Mm-hmm. And Walter's reaction is intriguing. He's like, "Maybe I am." 

Glen:  Yeah. There's a weird, slow push-in on his face.

Drew:  Mm-hmm. So he's like, "Oh. I may have not considered this. This is probably true." Barry is still a jerk, even if this is true. It can be more than one reason. I think that's the big take away from this episode. It can be more than one reason [laughs].

Glen:  Then Maude laughs.

Maude:  Oh, Honey. Honey, you are jealous. But you silly-Billy—this is all so unnecessary. I mean, imagine being jealous of Barry [laughs].  

[audience laughs and applauds]

[Maude laughs uproariously]

[audience laughs]

Barry:  What's so funny, Maude?

Maude:  I mean, you and me—I wish I was dead. 

[audience laughs] 

Glen:  One penis, one vagina—how would that work?

Drew:  But it's starts to trail off, and then she's like, "I wish I was dead." Weirdly, it is almost identical to the delivery of Rue McClanahan in the episode of Golden Girls where Rose dates a little person and she presumes that the entire thing is an elaborate joke that they've set up to prank her, and she laughs about it. And then the laugh dwindles slowly, and she's like, "I wish I was dead."

Dorothy:  Oh, Blanche. Blanche, this is Dr. Jonathan Newman.

Blanche:  Get out of here!

[audience laughs]

Dorothy:  Blanche!

Blanche:  But Dorothy, he's a—

Dorothy:  A little early, yes. But we're delighted to see him.

Rose:  Hi, Jonathan.

Jonathan:  Hello, Rose. You're looking lovely this evening.

Blanche:  Oh, wait a minute. Rose Nylund, you devil you [laughs]. I just figured out what's going on here.

Dorothy:  Blanche.

Blanche:  You were sore at me for inviting your friend without asking you, so you hired this guy to come over and teach me a lesson [laughs assuredly].

[audience laughs] 

Blanche:  [hesitates, but continues laughing] God, I wish I was dead. 

[audience laughs]

Drew:  It's almost the exact same delivery. Probably just a coincidence, but yeah. Barry's pissed. I guess—

Glen:  I think he overreacts.

Drew:  He does overreact. That's not a thing to—I mean, he's a shit.

Glen:   But I guess Maude overreacted too, like, she wished she were dead. So in that case, they're in the same boat. 

Drew:  Mm-hmm. But Barry decides "No. Fuck this. I think our friendship is dead," and he decides to leave.

Maude:  Barry, you know me. I don't have a biased bone in my body.

Barry:  That's right. They're all in your head. 

[audience laughs] 

Barry:  You know, it's not Walter. It's you. You're just another one of those guilt-ridden liberals that can't enjoy anything, not even your own prejudices.

Drew:  It's a very interesting indictment. 

Glen:  I don't know if it was earned in that moment, but that doesn't make it not correct.

Drew:  Right.

Maude:  Now wait just a minute, Barry. I'm getting angry now.

Barry:  Well, get angry.

Maude:  Yes, you're darn right, I'm getting angry! You call yourself my friend? You've known me all these months, now you tell me that I have a hang-up about your homosexuality? Well, let me tell you something, Mary—Barry.

[audience laughs and applauds]

Drew:  Yeah. I guess everyone else showed—I mean, I guess Arthur is Republican. But the other ones are fairly liberal, and they showed that they can kind of be okay with a hang-up. I guess that's a good thing. It's weird to say "enjoy your own prejudices," but if you take it to mean like, "You can't even see this part of yourself because—" I don't know. I don't know what to do about it.

Glen:  No, I think I know what you're getting at—like with Carol's joke. It's—quote/unquote—completely harmless. No gay people were actually there to be made fun of. It's clear that she doesn't—I guess it's not clear. We don't really know her very well. But she doesn't come off as homophobic. She's probably young and liberal. 

Drew:  Wait. Why did she date a gay? It's weird that she says she dated a gay guy.

Glen:  I think what she meant was "I dated a man who ended up being gay"—

Drew:  That's probably it.

Glen:  —which was a thing that happened. This is a debate that's been taken way too far and seriously by some people in this country in decrying PC culture. I think there's a difference between a healthy debate over humor at someone else's expense, whether a joke is—quote/unquote—harmless or not, and whether we can still make jokes and have fun. And I don't know that we as a culture or as entertainment professionals have found that line—or if there even is a solid line.

Drew:  I think it depends on who's listening. Someone who is middle of the road politically and 20 years older than us is going to have a very different reaction to the episode we're talking about than someone who is 20 years younger than us. 

Glen:  Oh, I'm sure we'll get those comments. 

Drew:  This reminded me of the discussion about wokeness—and this is not my theory. I think I heard it on a podcast. I'm going to guess Yo, Is This Racist?—I don't know for sure. But someone smarter than me was talking about the problem with "woke" where people think of it as being an on/off switch where it's like, "I'm not woke. Now I am. I'm good," and then going on autopilot and just presuming that you will continue to be good, which is what Maude has done. And you can't do that. You kind of have to be conscious of what you're thinking and saying and investigating your own attitudes because there's probably a bias you have against someone for some dumb reason. And if you are not thinking that you are susceptible to those biases, you'll never be able to fix them.

Glen:  Which leads nicely into the actual end of the scene.

Drew:  Yeah.

Glen:  After Walter compliments Maude by saying that she has less hang-ups than anyone he knows—which you know what? Yeah. Sometimes it is a sliding scale. They are talking about where to go to dinner because this was a drinks party—and I'm not going to say the joke.

Drew:  We'll cut it in.

Barry:  About the hang-up you don't have. Please, let it bother you. Let it bother the hell out of you.

[audience laughs and applauds]

Maude:  Oh. Oh, Walter. Oh, I am so humiliated. Oh, Walter. What have I done? Walter, what have I done?

Walter:  Just one thing darling—you've learned that we all have biases and we simply have to recognize them and deal with them as good as we can.

Maude:  As well as we can, Walter. 

[audience laughs] 

Maude:  Underneath, I know I am a tolerant person.

Walter:  You are. You just have a little hang-up. But Sweetheart, you have less hang-ups than anyone I know.

Maude:  Oh, Walter. I promise you, I will die before I say anything derogatory about anybody again. 

[Maude kisses Walter]

Walter:  Look. Maybe you'll feel better if we go out and have a good dinner—or a well dinner.

[audience laughs]

Maude:  Oh, all right, Honey. Maybe so.

Walter:  Good. What do you feel like eating? French, Italian, Spanish?

Maude:  Why don't we just go down to Wong Foo's and eat chinks?

[audience laughs and applauds]

Drew:  Okay. So, I looked it up. I've never heard this—are you familiar with this turn of phrase? Have you ever head that exactly the way she says it before?

Glen:  No. I don't know.

Drew:  So there are other instances of it in movies and TV shows where people are like, "Wait. Does that mean eating at a Chinese restaurant?" Because that is not what that word usually means. It's usually directed at a person and not a cuisine, but apparently—at least for a period in American culture—that was a way people used to describe eating at a Chinese restaurant.

Glen:  But it was clearly delivered in a way—as you were saying, like, this is one of her prejudice blind spots. 

Drew:  Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Glen:  Yeah. That's how they delivered it. That's how they intended it. It was intended as a mocking, derogatory joke.

Drew:  Yes, and it is totally that. I was just thrown by the—I was like, "Does that—why would you call it that?" Someone actually made fun of me for talking about my family in New Zealand. Apparently, I do that too often, whatever.

Glen:  Who did?

Drew:  Who did? 

Glen:  A listener? 

Drew:  No. Someone I know in real life. 

Glen:  Oh. I don't care about them.

Drew:  Yeah. So this was early 2000s, and I don't actually remember if it was with one of the Australian relatives of one of the New Zealand relatives, but they made reference to getting food from a Chinese restaurant and they referred to it at going to a "chinky chunk." They said it, and out of context I was just like, "I don't—what does that even mean?" Then I was like, "Oh," and I was baffled that that was something anyone in this millennium thought would be okay to say. But it's weird what doesn't occur to people as being offensive. 

Glen:  Well, yeah. That's a constant battle. Any conversation with parents.

Drew:  What's my point with this? 

Glen:  I don't know.

Drew:  [laughs]

Glen:  I think we already made the point before we got into the joke in that pobody's nerfect. But yeah, no one—we're not good. Period. We are all trying to be good. It is an ongoing thing.

Drew:  I don't know if this is the same source as the woke thing, but on Yo, Is This Racist?, there was someone—you know people call in with questions about stuff?

Glen:  Sure.

Drew:  He identifies himself as a white guy trying his best [laughs], which I was like, "That's actually not bad." You're just constantly trying to better yourself and trying to understand yourself and treat people they way they actually deserve to be treated. 

Drew:  Yeah. I think I've brought up the segment on Chris Hayes before where he is trying to argue on behalf of people who are trying their best, and this was specifically in terms of gendered pronouns and getting the language right and him just saying, "We're doing the work now to get past thousands and thousands of years of history in the way we talked about and thought about certain things, whether it's race or gender or sexuality." There are people who are willfully ignorant of that change, and they should be called out and educated. But there are people who know that things are changing and are trying to learn and to adapt to those changes, and they're going to screw up. 

Drew:  Right.

Glen:  And so Maude screws up. She screws up in this episode. That doesn't make her a bad person. What is bad about her in this episode is that she was so ready to call out everyone else in her life without looking in on herself and the work that she needed to do. So for all the people who are out there going around correcting your friends or family or acquaintances, coworkers—everyone who's going around and correcting the people in their lives—I don't know. I lost it. Thurman was scratching, and I lost it. But I think I had a good point.

Drew:  Maybe it's—

Glen:  It's the man in the mirror—from that artist that no one talks about anymore.

Drew:  [laughs] There's a lot of people we can't mention on the show nowadays. Just be sure to take stock of your own prejudices and think about why you're doing the things you're doing and see if there's some weird biases motivating it. Also, if you don't know what to call a group of people for some reason, like an ethnicity or maybe someone who has a different conception of gender, I would google it. Google's great. It's a great way to be like, "Oh. That's what it is." There's a lot of resources laying that out very plainly. Or ask a young person to google it for you if you don't know how to google it. They can probably also direct you towards something good.

Glen:  I'm staring into the darkness. The lights are on, yes—I know. No closing thoughts. I'm glad this turned out to be a good episode of TV. It actually did make me think, was still relevant, and I'm glad—yeah. I'm glad that we got an entertainingly awful gay man. 

Drew:  Mm-hmm, and a flawed liberal. Liberal is not the hero in this situation.

Glen:  Drew, where can people find you?

Drew:  You can find me on Twitter @DrewGMackie—M-A-C-K-I-E. Glen, where can people find you?

Glen:  They can find me on Twitter, @IWriteWrongs—that is "write" with a W—and on Instagram @BrosQuartz—B-R-O-S Quartz. Yes, that is a Steven universe reference.

Drew:  You can follow this podcast on Twitter @GayestEpisode. We're on Facebook @GayestEpisodeEver, and you can listen to all of our previous episodes at GayestEpisodeEver.com. Gayest Episode Ever is a TableCakes podcast. TableCakes is a Los Angeles based podcast network. Go to TableCakes.com to see all the other shows we're doing. You can support Gayest Episode Ever and all the other TableCakes shows by going to Patreon.com/TableCakes. If you are a gay person who likes TV, please recommend this podcast to someone you know who is perhaps also gay or perhaps also likes TV—or both.

Glen:  Also recommend it to straight people. I've gotten a couple shout-outs from my straight friends lately. 

Drew:  I like that. Well, TV's a universal thing, even if you're—yeah.

Glen:  Yes. Also, straight people also sometimes like gay people.

Drew:  That's not indicative of the shows we've been watching, but okay. Yeah. Recommendations are the best way we can build this audience. Join us next week when we will be talking about Bea Arthur again in the first of a back-to-back Golden Girls sandwich. Sandwich?

Glen:  There's nothing in the middle.

Drew:  Bread sandwich. Podcast over.

Glen:  Bye forever.

Drew:  Bread sandwich. 

["Diamond" by Via Verdi plays] 

Katherine:  A TableCakes Production.

[music plays]